I see the above phrase bandied around quite a lot these days. I’ve been thinking more and more about it – following this conversation with Kim (check out her blog by the way, it’s awesome).
I’ve always found myself recoiling from the phrase “real feminism”; people have told me that this has to do with the fact that deep inside, I know I’m “just another chick who loves the gilded cage [or some other, sexually-charged concept].”
*pout*
I’ve argued differently until I foamed at the mouth – I see nothing anti-feminist about accepting financial help from a male who’s money-savvy, for example – considering the fact that I’m about as money-savvy as a hamster. I’m people-savvy and lit-savvy – but I know my own limitations. I also don’t think this has anything to do with the fact that I’m female – if that’s what you’re thinking.
Since Kim and I were talking mainly about Tyra Banks – I’d also like to point out that I see nothing odd about women commidifying themselves in a commodity-driven culture. The culture itself may be pretty odd – but the people who live and die within that kind of structure – they will do the best they can to survive and succeed. “Life is sad, life is a bust, all ya can do, is do what ya must” – and all. Don’t blame Tyra, who at least has the guts to talk about cellulite (even though I consider her shows to be guilty pleasures), blame the world we live in. And even then – I believe things could be worse. Perhaps Natalia Vodianova is a better example here – is she better off as a supermodel, or as a poor chick living on the outskirts of Moscow somewhere? I asked this question to a group of girls who argued, rather meanly IMHO, that “models ought to know better.” After I raised the issue, you could hear a pin drop in the classroom, really. Not that I didn’t know where the girls were coming from – I did – especially since there are plenty of suffering Russian girls who do not possess Vodianova’s bone-structure, and really ought to have other avenues for success (and the Vodianovas of this world should have these choices as well, duh)… Nevertheless, the debate, at the time, struck me as one-sided and underinformed, and cruel, did I mention cruel?
I think that when we use the phrase “real feminism” – we often mean “perfect feminism.” I personally don’t know any “perfect feminists.” I know people who have striven to achieve this – the people who went on to embody another dreaded phrase: “former friends.” I think there is a very thin line between striving for perfection and turning facist, after all.
Of course, I speak from personal experience only. I’m just another fool. Speaking of fools – any one of them knows that feminism is a very diverse movement – with capitalist and neo-marxist members, with granola-munching lesbian grandmas and cookie-baking housewives and tough-minded business executives defining themselves, at least in some small part, through “the f-word.” And sometimes arguing over the definition.
Personally, I think the only people who trucky suck the patriarchy’s…. tee hee hee… are the ones who, deep inside, feel that women should be punished for being women. Like obscenity – you know these people when you see them. And you feel sad for them. At least I do.
with special thanks to Mark, who’s letting me use his computer, while the fate of my own computer hangs in the balance
Natalia A. 
I agree very much with your logic and way of thinking here. I have come across certain people whom for it was mandatory to think, say, and do certain things to be considered a feminist. And it scared me. In the actions and words of these people I was strongly reminded of the Christian Right. *Shiver.*
I would consider saying that my own brand of feminism is more humanistic than anything. Yes, I am fighting for women and yes I am acutely aware of patriarchy and its consequences, but I do accept the plight of all people and I do not shut myself off from other forms of pain and suffering (though this pain and suffering might seem the opposite to blurry eyes). It is a thin line, as you say, and I’ve walked the more bigoted side more than once.
Bravo for sticking with your own beliefs.
There’s been a lot of this idea being discussed at a few places on my blogroll, and the real problem is, at least from what I’ve seen, the idea that feminism is a monolith, supported by the holy writ (in the form of Dworkin, MacKinnon, etc.) and if you state anything not designed to support the monlith, it’s going to all come crashing down.
I don’t call myself a feminist for my own reasons, mostly relating to the fact that I don’t believe that that word is mine to use as I see fit. Why is it that some feminist have to use that word as a bludgeon, something to belittle other women with? They use the language and theory of feminism to make other women feel excluded and, in all seriousness, hated. I thought that the point of feminism was to fight misogyny, but there are those who have a problem doing that, and yet they still call themselves feminists.
The weird thing is, there are enough true anti-feminists out there to be fighting, and yet, all these so-called feminists have is to mock other feminist women for their lifestyle choices, even when those choices aren’t really affecting ANYONE. That’s all kinds of messed up, in my humble opinion.
While I agree with some of what you say, especially about the tendency of people who identify as part of this or that political/social movement to use that movement as a way to (often cruelly) attack and denounce — or, more simply, bludgeon — others, I can’t agree with all of it (worst sentence ever). Although I know that “the personal is the political” is one of the slogans of feminism, I think there is an important difference between one’s private financial arrangments and working as an “exotic” dancer, publicly participating in and reinforcing so many of the worst of our society’s attitudes about women. Personally, what I think is more important is to be self-aware about it, as Kim was (if I remember correctly). But I think it is reasonable to say, look, this or that action is simply not consistent with feminism, no matter how you define it. Again, I agree with you that some individuals can be mighty tiresome, but I don’t think that that means that principles need to thrown out because they’re too divisive.
If someone can drive an SUV, never recycle, own stock in Exxon and buy Tyson chicken (oops) and still call himself an environmentalist, I think it’s fair to ask if “environmentalism” actually means anything. Likewise, if a man calls himself pro-feminist but watches porn, tells and laughs at sexist jokes, and always prefers men to women professionally, I think it’s fair to say, you’re not pro-feminist at all. I think something similar can be done with feminism, even if too often it’s done over relatively trivial things like wearing skirts or whatnot.
Damn, I always think I can make some pithy comment, and then I drone on endlessly. Anyways, my two cents.
***publicly participating in and reinforcing so many of the worst of our society’s attitudes about women.***
I don’t think there is anything terribly wrong with exotic dancing in principle.
I think a lot of people have very strange attitudes about it – on one hand, it turns them on (and they pay for it, etc.), on the other hand, they denounce it.
I think that attitude is what really gets me – not the exotic dancing itself.
Same with modeling, etc. Well then again, I’ve worked as a model.
Also, I think that environmentalism is a whole lot more clear-cut that something like feminism. Or perhaps maybe not – considering the fact that a lot of this organic and/or fair-trade stuff has been shown to have downsides too.
I’m a believer in the individual and individual interpretation. If there is a woman who seemingly has the image of a non-feminist but the mouth and mind of a feminist and knows it, who are we to judge? We should not have to follow a code dealing with trite and trivial business.
I’ve been a feminist before I even knew there was a word for it. I’m the daughter of a gypsy-hearted, free-spirited woman. I’ve had some of these opinions all my life. I know what I am. I know what I stand for. And I do it, every day. So, if I put on a pair of heels or choose to give a blow-job or whatnot – what gives some people the right to denounce me and call me various names? (Not that they have, but other women have been, and I am all women).
Maybe it’s just my profound dislike for mobs of any sort. Not that feminism is a mob – but wait, any large group of people that yells and hammers on about issues that are more harmful to people than helpful is. Why are we focusing on issues such as how a woman dresses, how and with whom she chooses to have sex – when we could all unite and address issues such as the sex trade? The mutilation of female genitalia? The oppression of women in the Middle East? Can you imagine the force we could become if only we threw out all this petty shit?
That was my angry rant. Now my love letter – feminism is a beautiful, enlightening thing. It is a personal, spiritual thing (for me at least) and can be worn as a badge any number of ways. Let the individual choose as how to she/he wants to wear it – and if we want to try and persuade that individual to perhaps abandon a certain action or thought, let’s not yell that individual down or mar their name. It’s counterproductive.
Likewise, if a man calls himself pro-feminist but watches porn, tells and laughs at sexist jokes, and always prefers men to women professionally, I think it’s fair to say, you’re not pro-feminist at all. I think something similar can be done with feminism, even if too often it’s done over relatively trivial things like wearing skirts or whatnot.
Very true, but I guess what I have a problem with is that, when it comes to feminism, whose definition is THE LONE RIGHT ONE, FOREVER AND EVER, A-WOMEN! It seems to me that there should be room in the theory for women who consent to being in the porn because they like it, as well as room for making the porn industry more in the hands of sex workers and creating an egalitarian environment. I guess what I’m saying is, is it porn that’s misogynist, or is the way our culture views porn and erotica? Why is focusing on creating a more egalitarian industry while not specifically condemning the practice of creating/using porn so wrong? Is it the idea that it won’t work. There may be a case for that, and I’m not going to try to define it.
Point of fact though, calling women names and degrading their experiences? Yeah, I hope that isn’t what feminism is about.
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In a non-sexist world, there wouldn’t be anything wrong with it. Unfortunately, strip clubs tend to set up a certain anti-woman atmosphere. Most men come to gather round and remind themselves that they are male (and therefore superior). They have a love/hate relationship with the dancers: on the one hand, men are “supposed” to be insatiable in sexual appetite and strippers provide endless titillation. On the other, they have to shell out money for dances and drinks, with the deep-down knowledge that they aren’t being paid attention because the woman likes them: she likes the money they’re stuffing in her thong.
It’s an exaggeration of the patriarchal money-for-pussy system, without the niceities of romantic love and wedding dresses to pretty it up.
Both groups are paying for their status. Men pay actual money to keep women the sex class. Strippers (and escorts — I don’t count street prostitutes, because that’s something a bit different) throw other women under the bus by conforming to the system, for the sake of financial gain.
I think it’s interesting that when women perform sexually in a way that isn’t degrading to them, it doesn’t make half so much money. A small-time burlesque dancer (tending to have both men and women at their shows) barely makes a tenth of what I made as a non-celeb stripper on any given night.
P.S.: Thanks for the compliment! I like your blog as well!
🙂
Unfortunately, strip clubs tend to set up a certain anti-woman atmosphere. Most men come to gather round and remind themselves that they are male (and therefore superior).
For the majority of men and clubs, oh yeah. No argument here. Some of the worst excuses for my gender are those guys (I work with a few of them…ugh).
I’m curious, though how this can be remedied. Admittedly, since I do not watch mainstream porn or go to strip clubs, I’m ignorant as to what specifically transpires, but would it not stand to reason that a worker-controlled industry would alleviate some of the problems of inequity amongst the various workers? Granted, it won’t stop the low-lifes from bonding over hating women via their own sick fantasies, but is that something that is inherently the fault of porn, or our society?
Strippers (and escorts — I don’t count street prostitutes, because that’s something a bit different) throw other women under the bus by conforming to the system, for the sake of financial gain.
I’m not exactly sure how this is accurate, since “conforming to the system” is something that occurs in multiple industries and in multiple areas where women have been able to eek out livings. The fault, I believe, is not in women, but the system. The woman who becomes Secretary of State is, in my opinion, no more or no less throwing a woman working at Burger King under a bus than a woman who is an escort does. I think the problem comes when you try to make broad definitions based solely on one aspect, i.e. sex, and attempt to apply it to all people.
Anyway, just some thoughts.
Is the woman who had a 1600 on her SAT’s throwing me under the bus? I mean, I may have gone to Duke – but I still got a crappy score. 😉
Hmmm…. Also, did I get thrown under the bus today while I was walking to work in my loafers, and a woman in stilettos passed me?
I mean – on one hand, I see what you’re saying, but on the other hand – this logic doesn’t really work for me. Especially if you LIKE certain aspects of the system (personally, I do).
Perhaps you could clarify more?
My point was basically that blaming women in the porn industry for women’s suffering is just as illogical as blaming women in any industry for women’s suffering. I’m totally not saying that women are throwing other women under a bus. I didn’t come up with that.
And when I say “system”, I don’t mean anything specifically, but then again, I’m a socialist, so the capitalist system and me, eh, we have some disagreements. I was basically getting at the idea that we treat the sex industry as this separate deal, for reasons that are not easy to see. Yes, rape is a problem, sexual violence against women is a problem, but is porn the reason, full stop? I’m not so sure it is.
I’d like to see workers in all industries have more power over the industry.
Oh, I was responding to Kim, actually.
***I’d like to see workers in all industries have more power over the industry.***
Precisely.