A parting shot in the BDSM wars: “You deserve to get fired and have your kids taken away”

For all our differences, Nine Deuce, I expected better from you. Allowing your commenters to rip into BDSMers, whilst using bigoted language no less, as you sit back and insist you’re encouraging debate on the issue? Didn’t expect anything different. Couldn’t bother with it.

Nine Deuce as one of my favourite LOLcats
Nine Deuce as one of my favourite LOLcats

Your latest comment and attempts at justifying it, on the other hand – deserves some verbiage. And LOLcats.

“Stop comparing your situation to the plight of homosexuals. And stop comparing my arguments to those of asshole homophobes.”

I’m neither gay nor kinky, but I think it’s fairly obvious that there are some parallels here. Many homophobes do exactly what you and your commenters do, ND, be it a) Assuming that TEH GAYZ are “sick” people who can one day “see the light.” b) Acting threatened and/or angry because this group doesn’t fit into their particular ideology. c) Believing that the group is full of dangerous perverts.

Oh, speaking of which…

“Why are people getting fired for being into BDSM? Ever heard of sexual harassment? Talking about sex at work isn’t cool, whether you’re straight, gay, into BDSM, or celibate. It’s just not appropriate.”

ND, you don’t realize that it is the outing (as opposed to zealous over-sharing) of kinky people that directly contributes to most of these firings – or else you are just being deliberately obtuse. I’m willing to bet it’s the latter. But you have nothing in common with homophobes, is that right? The same homophobes that assume, for example, that there should be no gay people in the armed forces because they’re icky bastards who harass the straight population…?

“And to be honest, if I were a parent, I’d be concerned if my child’s other parent were into BDSM because I wouldn’t want my child exposed to it. It’s absolutely ridiculous to think you ought to have the right to normalize that kind of behavior in front of children who haven’t got the critical thinking abilities to understand what’s going on.”

Every family must have a Nine Deuce on call to ensure appropriate behaviour at all times. Get yours today!
Every family must have a Nine Deuce on call to ensure appropriate behaviour at all times. Get yours today!

Naw, this isn’t at all similar to the familiar GAY PEOPLE CORRUPT OUR NATION’S YOUTH.

ND, for someone who prides herself on her superior intellect – can you not see that any parental extracurricular can be taken to an extreme?

Example: some parents abuse their animals, beat them, chain them outside and do not allow them to be socialized, and then act surprised when said animals attack a child.

On the other hand, you have my dad. He got us a Doberman when I was in the first grade. She was trained as a proper guard dog. She was tough to handle at times, but she was a much-needed addition to our family. She rescued my mother twice. She allowed me to have a lot of independence when I dealt with trauma – because I could go anywhere with her, and I slept soundly in my room knowing she was outside. This animal was loved – and it loved in return.

Men like my father have little in common with individuals who deliberately turn their animals into psychotic killing machines – but by your own celebrated logic, ND, my father had no right to have custody of me either.

BDSMers are no different. Some make great parents, some not so much. Issuing blanket statements on the matter is pure bigotry.

When someone, Antiprincess to be precise, calls you on your bullshit, saying: “tell you what, then – I’ll just bring my little boy around by your house, and you can raise him, to spare him the horror and indignity of the possibility of being “exposed” to the tragedy of my life as a kinky person.”

you know it's bad when you have to dust off the George W. Bush administration to illustrate your point as to the epic-ness of said fail
you know it's bad when you have to dust off the George W. Bush administration to illustrate your point as to the epic-ness of said fail

– You don’t even give this woman the dignity of a proper response. You know why? Because you can’t. You can dodge the subject, speak in generalities, have your commenters point out “but here’s this one case where a BDSM father was abusive!”, and otherwise shut down and divert discussion – but you can’t honestly respond to a woman who’s telling you “here’s my child, whom I love and care for, and who the hell are you to imply that I deserve to lose him?”

Go ahead, put your money where your mouth is. Offer to give this woman’s child the same love and protection that his mother gives him. Because you care so much (as opposed to the fact that you are willing to engage in crassly inappropriate insults of an entire group of people that reveal how much “examining” you probably need to do of yourself in your own spare time – and being unwilling to admit as such when confronted directly with the absurdity of your claims).

On your “About” page you have the following to say to your readers:

“If you happen upon anything you find terrifically offensive, consider the possibility that it might be a joke or a rhetorical device. If both of those alternatives seem unlikely, you’re probably either a crybaby or an asshole that I’m not worried about offending.”

Go ahead, call Antiprincess an “asshole crybaby.” It will be like the delicious icing on the cake o’ fail. Everyone knows that only asshole crybabies object to having their children ripped away from them. And after you’ve chased away everyone willing to engage in debate with you, I hope you enjoy the echo chamber.

For more on the subject, see Ren. And Ren again. And Trinity:

“[ND] wants fame for having the most massive ovaries in bloglandia, which she has confused with having (or trying for, anyway) the most viciously thoughtless fingers in bloglandia.”

Hate to say it about someone whose Philip Roth takedowns I had enjoyed – but I agree.

61 thoughts on “A parting shot in the BDSM wars: “You deserve to get fired and have your kids taken away”

  1. I like how she’s speaking for gay men and lesbian women from the comfort of her heteronormative, heterosexual relationship.

    Also, as a lesbian, I have to say that the comment thread does sound like a bunch of heterosexual homophobes flipping their shit over homosexuality.

    Seriously, wtf? Only virtuous women deserve reproductive freedom and justice? These are feminists?

  2. It still amazes me – how quickly women’s liberation descends into “liberation for women who are A, B, and C – but not X, Y, Z.”

    It’s like “Enjoy your choices in life! As long as they correspond entirely to my personal likes and dislikes! Otherwise, screw you! You deserve humiliation, scorn, loss of livelihood, loss of family!”

  3. natalia – “It still amazes me – how quickly women’s liberation descends into “liberation for women who are A, B, and C – but not X, Y, Z.” ”

    liberal feminists do this. you do not support the choices of more conservative women. a pro-life woman will get no respect from you.

  4. Cranky, I suspect Natalia has ample respect for pro-life crowd when they choose to have their own children. It’s when they try and make that choice for everyone else that we run into problems. This seems to be the issue with Nine Deuce (she must eat a lot of fiber). She’s trying to take someone’s choices away from them or at least she wants them to pay a penalty for those choices because she finds them distasteful.

  5. Obvious troll is obvious.

    Cranky, that’s a strawman, and you know it. Kevin’s right. I have no patience for women who tell me what to do with my uterus – but I certainly don’t deride them for having kids. Most liberal feminists don’t. In fact, it’s some radical feminists who think they get to lecture people on whether or not they should reproduce (and ND is actually the perfect example of that).

    And seriously – like Anthony, I’m left wondering why respect is an issue for you. You don’t care to extend it to others.

  6. Way to pick around my blog and put things together that weren’t meant to be read together. It really adds rhetorical force to your argument.

    But really, I assumed people would know that I don’t think that it’s appropriate for people to lose their kids or be fired from their jobs for their sexual preferences. I was responding to someone who had made a claim that people who are into BDSM are persecuted everywhere they go, and bringing attention to the fact that I’ve come across specific instances in which it was the behavior of the person involved rather than their proclivities that was the basis for the “persecution.”

    I’m fucking tired of people saying I’m trying to “take people’s choices away” just because I don’t happen to think something is cool. Am I the CEO of the company you work for? Am I the law? No, I’m just someone with an opinion and a blog with a few readers who mostly either already agree with me or never will. I wish people would stop pretending that I a) have the power to take away anyone’s choices, or b) even care to. I’ve stated in maybe 789,438 places on my blog that my aim isn’t the criminalization of anything, but rather to effect a change in a few people’s attitudes in the hopes that things will get better for everyone in the future.

    Lisa Harney – I’ve said several times that I’m not going to speak for lesbians or gay men, and I’ve refrained from it unless someone was making an egregious comparison. Several lesbians have been thoroughly pissed off by the comparisons being made, and several have said they think the comparison works. It isn’t up to me, but I can say that I take offense at the comparison between me and rabid homophobes, because I think it’s dishonest, mainly. It’s like this: I think BDSM is problematic, that we don’t need to be mixing sex up with power, that it’s symptomatic of a warped sexual culture. I don’t think that would be the case in a world without a sex hierarchy. That isn’t the same thing as me thinking you deserve to be persecuted, and it’s a far cry from the insane anti-gay arguments of those God Hates Fags psychos. The comparison is offensive and is extremely shallow, because if one digs just an inch under the surface, glaring differences emerge immediately.

  7. Pick around your blog? That’s taken from one whole comment you made. I didn’t misquote or misrepresent you. You’re fond of telling people that sex does not occur in a vacuum – well, neither do your words.

    You assumed that BDSMers sexually harass their colleagues. You made the case for them being bad parents. A far cry from simply discussing sex & power. Now you’re offended because people have pointed out that your words echo homophobia?

    Trust me, it’s not just homophobia. There’s a host of other issues here. But I’m not fond of nitpicking. I just think you should have apologized to Antiprincess when you had the chance.

    P.S. The reason I quote your “about” page has to do with the fact that you obviously cannot allow for the possibility that your words can have genuine negative impact on the people who read them – which isn’t at all true, considering the so-called BSDM wars.

  8. O hai there!

    But, ND, Natalia’s just expressing her opinion on her very own blog. Too.

    p.s. congratulations on your impending nuptials. Will you be pronounced “iconoclast and iconoclast?” Are you registered at a particularly iconoclastic store? I presume toasters aren’t on the registry. Or y’know, floggers. Darn.

    It is awesome, though, that you’ve found a soulmate; I don’t know how the world is going to deal with so much iconoclastic, anti-patriarchal specialness in one room. Oh, and thanks for examining your choices about it and letting us all know your process: it makes me feel so relieved, because you know, we all Cared Deeply, certainly much more than about your endless noxious rabbiting on and on about shit you don’t know about, your cut-rate Twistyism and overall energy suckage, and just generally doing a remarkable imitation of any number of other reactionary assholes we’ve all had the displeasure of having to deal with. But, -iconoclastic.-

    p.s. give bonobobabe my completely non-homoerotic love, if she’s in the comments; and all of us would like to thank you for your staunch defense of Teh Gay, especially those of us who’re both queer and kinky. You’re awesome! And special!

    xoxoxox

  9. “I’m not a racist! Just because I constantly employ racist tropes and use racist language and am apparently willing to wield my white privilege like a brickbat! I never actually lynched anyone! Therefore, I’m off the hook. How DARE you insult my honor. QED.”

    never heard ANY of this shit before, I tell ye. such iconoclasm, it is overwhelming.

  10. and by the way, you know, gay people, like kinky people, are never held up to higher standards than straight people wrt “flaunting it.” As in, “I am aware of your existence, or I overheard you talking to a friend in the cafeteria about your date last night, or I noticed a ring on your finger or picture and asked about it and you told me, and now I can’t sleep for the dirty images racing across my feverish little brain; and hey, there’s no automatic anti-discrimination protection for you if I decide to complain to the management; so essentially, if I don’t like what you do, and I find out about it, you’re screwed, no matter how ‘discreet’ you are.”

    Never happens. Never ever.

    p.s. did I mention you’re a tiresome waste of oxygen? Hay, just my opinion! LOL!

  11. and, you know, “affecting peoples’ opinions” by spreading a bunch of crap about how TERRIBLE people who practice BDSM are, that has no real world impact whatsoever, as long as you’re not the one actually making the laws; it’s not as though people who make the laws are influenced by the mutterings of people like you, ever. You’re just….what, blathering into the void? So, none of us should pay any attention to you? Super, I wish my friends wouldn’t; but, well, here we are, and since we are:

    Fuck off.

  12. Wow.

    With all of the monstrous behaviour you and your commentariat have displayed, you can come over here, Nine Deuce, and say this?

    But really, I assumed people would know that I don’t think that it’s appropriate for people to lose their kids or be fired from their jobs for their sexual preferences.

    How can you assume people know something that you neither said nor implied?

    “Kinky people sometimes get fired from their jobs and lose their kids because of their kink.”
    “Well, that’s what they get for flaunting their sex lives at work. Don’t they know that that’s inappropriate?”

    Where is the empathy and understanding? Where is the expression that this is unreasonable? All I see is, “Well, you know, your kind is so flamboyant and oversexed that you can’t help but get your perversion all over everything, and what are decent people expected to do, huh?”

    (Which is – surprise surprise! – identical to a popular homophobic argument. But of course pointing that out is so unreasonable and dishonest.)

    Over here in the non-radfem world, we aren’t mind-readers. I know you and your commentariat fancy that you are, with all your claims of abuse and patriarchy and the like, but, again, in the real world, you’re not mind-readers either.

    Now, I don’t expect that you’ll respond to this, as I haven’t seen you respond to a single thing a submissive woman has said in space where you’re not surrounded by your rabid sycophants (and I’m not stupid enough to set myself up for abuse by going to your blog), but damnit, your kind of paternalistic oppression needs to be stood up to every time it shows up.

    Now go handwring to your little minions about how you don’t have any power to oppress the nasty BDSMers, and they’re projecting all over you just because you’re aligning yourself with the patriarchy.

  13. But really, I assumed people would know that I don’t think that it’s appropriate for people to lose their kids or be fired from their jobs for their sexual preferences.

    that’s BS. because, here, look:

    “And to be honest, if I were a parent, I’d be concerned if my child’s other parent were into BDSM because I wouldn’t want my child exposed to it. It’s absolutely ridiculous to think you ought to have the right to normalize that kind of behavior in front of children who haven’t got the critical thinking abilities to understand what’s going on.”

    how do you think you prevent the child’s exposure to it, without removing the child?

    what other logical ideas you got?

  14. AP – There’s a difference between thinking people ought not to lose their jobs or kids because of what they do in private and those who behave inappropriately in front of children or co-workers. And if it’s a full-time thing, I don’t see how it’s appropriate to expose a kid to it.

    Natalia – That shit you have in quotes in your title is not a quote from me.

    And neither is any of that stuff in quotes in your comment Dw3t-Hthr.

    Like I said, I see the same surface comparisons you guys do between what’s being said about BDSM and what people have said about homosexuals, but that’s all it is, a surface comparison of language. The substance is vastly different (and really, so is the language, if you’d quote me instead of putting words in my mouth with fake quotes).

  15. You want quotes?

    Fine, I’ll give you quotes.

    In reply to:

    “Did your read the part where we explained that we can be jailed or lose our kids? have you heard of the spanner case?” – which I paraphrased as “Kinky people sometimes get fired from their jobs and lose their kids because of their kink”.

    You said:

    “Why are people getting fired for being into BDSM? Ever heard of sexual harassment? Talking about sex at work isn’t cool, whether you’re straight, gay, into BDSM, or celibate. It’s just not appropriate.” (which I paraphrased as “Well, that’s what they get for flaunting their sex lives at work. Don’t they know that that’s inappropriate?”)

    Disingenuous radfem is disingenuous.

    As I asked you before, back when you were earnestly explaining that you only “got into it” with men, DO YOU READ WHAT YOU WRITE?

  16. AP – There’s a difference between thinking people ought not to lose their jobs or kids because of what they do in private and those who behave inappropriately in front of children or co-workers. And if it’s a full-time thing, I don’t see how it’s appropriate to expose a kid to it.

    obviously.
    but this comment here:

    “And to be honest, if I were a parent, I’d be concerned if my child’s other parent were into BDSM because I wouldn’t want my child exposed to it.”

    doesn’t say that. it says “I don’t trust my child’s other parent because s/he is kinky.” and that comment implies (at least, how I read it) that something should be done to address that concern of yours.

    but now you’re saying that any idiot should have been able to understand that you didn’t really mean that children should be removed from a home where their kinky parents live. it’s just that you were concerned.

    but if you’re that concerned, why not walk your talk? if not, how concerned are you, really…

    you know, this is NOT ACADEMIC for some of us. this is not just a casual online chat. this is our real lives.

    that said, with the amount of actual, er, intimacy (of any flavor) I’ve been getting lately, maybe this discussion is more academic than it ought to be.

  17. “Like I said, I see the same surface comparisons you guys do between what’s being said about BDSM and what people have said about homosexuals, but that’s all it is, a surface comparison of language. The substance is vastly different (and really, so is the language”

    And you are the correct judge of this because why?

    Because, you have better recognition from being on the receiving end of both than someone who is both queer and kinky, is that right, respectable married straight lady? As the one who ISN’T the one who has to worry about -her- kids or -her- job being taken away?

    just fuck off, and take your galaxy sized ego with you. no one asked for your thinky thoughts; go back and rant to your choir.

  18. ND – back to this comment again:
    “And to be honest, if I were a parent, I’d be concerned if my child’s other parent were into BDSM because I wouldn’t want my child exposed to it.”

    and, balancing that against the idea that no, you don’t want to remove children from their parents, no really, you swear –

    maybe what you’re saying is “I’d be concerned for my kid, but I am not concerned about other people’s children”?

  19. ND, this is what your words on that thread amount to. If you don’t want to see that, fine. I can’t convince you otherwise. You poke people with sticks and get incredulous and indignant when they respond negatively. I wish you’d understand why.

  20. Nine Deuce, the comparison isn’t about you – it’s about the people you’re attacking and offending. If it offends you to be compared to people who say hateful things, then perhaps the best solution is to find a way to not say hateful things?

    It’s far worse to say that people deserve to lose their jobs and custody of their children to preserve your own sense of outraged morality that says kinky people shouldn’t be around decent folk than it is for someone to say about you that “you sound like a bigot” when you say that.

  21. “maybe what you’re saying is “I’d be concerned for my kid, but I am not concerned about other people’s children”?

    No, if she wanted to say that then she could say that. If she weren’t concerned about “other peoples’ children” (which by the way she seems not to think are a good idea for -anybody-, yeah, childfree on top of everything else, quel surprise), she wouldn’t be blathering in broad generalizations, including shit about on the job, and oh yeah making -rhetorical flourishes- like the one noted.

    No, what she means is,

    “I am not going to come right out and sponsor a bill or campaign for a politician that enforce exactly those scenarios (i.e. people losing custody of their kids for no other reason than their sex life). However, I’m sure as shit not going to get in the way of it happening, and the rhetoric I’m employing helps enforce the climate in which such scenarios -really do occur all the goddam time-. For which I take no responsibility, of course, because a) I have no power, bat bat bat the eyelids b) when it comes right down to it they’re -really bad people-. I just want to make sure no one thinks -I’m- a bad person, so, yay for plausible deniability!! w00t”

  22. and yes, ND, if you’re so concerned about people responding to your exact words, then you need to start by noticing that what you were replying to? (as quoted by D) was not about -people talking about their sex lives at work.- -You- leaped to that conclusion. I wonder why.

    and by the way, where did anyone compare you to Fred Phelps, specifically? OH RIGHT no one did; it’s just that when you say -homophobe- you MUST mean “God Hates Fags” or it doesn’t really -count- as homophobia. Sort of the same way that it isn’t REAL racism unless you actually lynched someone with your own hands; or it isn’t REAL misogyny unless you’re Jack The Ripper. Thank goodness! Guess you’re off the hook then, huh?

    Oh, and per your not liking being thought of/spoken of in a way that you don’t think of yourself, especially when that involves the possibility of third parties reading that and reviling you because of it: -Gee-. Imagine that.

    -waits an eternity for the penny to drop-

    …..

    ……………………………………

    (hint: except in our case it’s more than “people won’t like us,” it’s “can actually lose jobs, homes, and children, while your shit is still safe)

    -keeps waiting for a clue to dawn-

    ………………….

    ………………………………………………………….

    -goes off to scan the sky for flying pigs instead-

  23. oh, and the other way in which the comparison is apt between BDSM and Teh Queer, ND, is because, as with homophobes, you spout blatantly ignorant and stereotypical bullshit about What Those People Must Do (delicate shudder) and armchair psychologizing out the wazoo; apparently the last eight zillion threads of fail at your place were people taking it on good faith for god knows what reason that you -might- actually hear and understand them when they explain how it really works; your comments in this thread make it abundantly clear that absolutely none of it has made the slightest dent, any more than it would for me to go explain earnestly to Paul Cameron that no, really, your statistics are wrong and your ideas about what “causes” this are wrong and say you’re being a bit demonizing there and um no no one actually does -that- and…

    bigoted asshat is bigoted.

    in this case it’s all the more headdesky because there are some actual interesting and useful discussions to be had about the nature of power and sexuality, the psychosexual piece, the sociocultural piece, the intersections, yadda yadda etc. They happen elsewhere. Unfortunately for you, you’ll never be a part of them, because it always boils down to ignorant bigoted asshat and the aggravated response thereto 101. Also, and possibly related, you’re not nearly as clever as you think you are, and your smug ego-wank attitude would be tiresome as shit even without the loathsome content.

  24. and by the way, I don’t know if you were aware, but people often use anti-kink bias as an entry point into discriminating against gay folk. As in: yep, vanilla gay people can lose jobs or custody (except in such places where they have specific anti-discrimination protection); and het kinky people can as well. But, between het kinky people and gay kinky people, guess who gets the most static from the authorities?

    And, guess how often “ew, they’re into the dirty dirty leather/etc, you see what a cesspit of sick it all is” is used as classic homophobe fuel?

    Speaking of cesspits: do give bonobobabe my regards:

    “I think that anal sex is also a good way of saying, “I hate myself.” I work in the microbiology department of a medical lab, but you don’t need to be a microbiologist to know that the rectum is a filthy place. Here’s my favorite statistic: 60% of the mass of a turd is bacteria.

    Why would a man put his penis, which is supposedly his crowning glory, into a shithole? Seriously. Oh, don’t try criticizing anal sex for any reason on a liberal site, all the faggots will cry, “Homophobe!” and they’ll eat you alive. I don’t care. It’s disgusting and filthy, not to mention not good for the tissues back there. There’s a media doctor here in the states who’s always on about rectal prolapse and anal sex.

    I believe that men wouldn’t put their dicks in such a disgusting place if they didn’t feel that they were disgusting themselves. They probably just extrapolate from that that if someone consents to anal sex, they are just as disgusting, too, and therefore, deserve any bad treatment they wish to dish out. And women consent to stuff like that because they have low self-esteem which was caused by men in the first place because they felt bad about themselves. – bonobobabe”

    * as found here, http://renegadeevolution.blogspot.com/2008/11/feminism-radical-notion-that-women-are.html

    and the original source seems to be -now- hidden, but, gosh, I’m glad RE captured it for posterity, as it were, while it was still public.

    *

    now. three guesses how many of the same people who agreed with the above or at least nodded along without protest are the same charmers currently spouting -not at all comparable- crap about kink and its practitioners over at ND’s?

  25. Oh look, another link with that bit of “renaissance faire” nonsense. How cute. Apparently the fact that people responded to part one by that title with “What the hell is this shit?” hasn’t changed a damn thing; she’s just going to keep making things up and blaming other people for them.

  26. yeah, the “Ren Faire” shite was pretty much exactly Twisty’s wording -three years ago- on the post that marked where I came in on this shit. yawn. So, okay, now it’s just -silly and tacky,- and we’re all making a big deal over nothing; certainly it has nothing to do with other people going off about “they should lose their jobs and children,” no, we’re all a bunch of tiresome silly nerds who aren’t worth bothering about, except that they’re the ones who apparently can’t shut up about it.

  27. god. I may actually have to even respond to that one–oh yayz, straight woman responds with derision to queer people calling her and hers on homophobia, well, I suppose it makes for a nice change/complement to all the Special White Women having cows of various sizes because ZOMG WE’RE NOT RACIST how silly yet outrageous to suggest such a thing.

    and yet: energy creature is energy creature. do I really need to grace her with another link? it’s not like she’s worth the bandwidth.

  28. What gets me, really, is this sense that they’re constructing this elaborate fantasy about my life and self and that of people who are vaguely like me to enjoy in their personal spaces.

    I can’t figure out how this is any different than, you know, the junior high school boys who made up elaborate fantasies of my life and self to wank off to. It doesn’t have any more respect for my autonomy or what’s actually real to me; it’s this depersonalising, dehumanising, fetishisation of some trait of mine for someone else’s gratification.

    I mean, there are these two groups of people who constructed elaborate sexual fantasies about me without my consent: the radfem anti-BDSM contingent, and twelve-year-old boys playing sexually-harass-the-freak. What about the exact same behaviour warrants different response?

    (Betcha someone in that crowd will come back, if I get a response at all, with “But why do you let him beat you / stick needles in your tits / whatever else”, which only proves the point.)

  29. as I said back home, as it were…

    As most of you know, I am Jewish. So, since I am Jewish and all, I don’t like German people. Or Russians. Or Middle Eastern people either. Or White Christians, especially those from the south. Why? Well, because some of those people have done really horrible things to Jewish people, and thus, because that’s the way it is, I am going to hold all of those people accountable for the actions of those few.

    And you know, I don’t think I should have to work with anyone who might be any one of those things. Because they might tell anti-Semitic jokes, or make anti-Semitic slurs. They might not do it around me, but they might do it elsewhere, or amid their friends when not at work, or around their children, so you know, those people don’t deserve to have jobs, much less jobs where I am at.

    Shoot, even other Jews who make Jew jokes- even funny Jews who make funny Jew jokes- they should not get to be around me, because I don’t like that shit. And further more, no one is ever allowed to question me about Israel, or what the Israeli’s do. In fact, no one should ever question or think poorly of anything Israel does. Ever.

    And none of these people should be parents, because I question their ability to raise children who are not anti-Semitic. After all, if one is around an anti-Semite, it rubs off on them, yes? Even if their parents never outwardly display anti-Semitic leanings.

    And it is perfectly sane and just for me to hold all Germans, all Russians, all Middle Eastern people, and all White Christians, especially Southern ones, responsible for the acts, thoughts, and actions of a few members of those groups and feel they should not have jobs or children. In fact, once in junior high, an Italian kid called me a kike, so yeah, add Italians to my list too.

    I should not have to be exposed to any of these people, ever, nor should any other Jew.

    *This, of course, was written in heaping sarcasm, but hell, if it does not sound familiar. FFS, I am Russian & Jewish after all. Do you see how fucked up it sounds when I say it like this? Well, it is no more fucked up than when ND says it like that.

  30. The thing that really bugs me is that she’s trying to retcon this whole mess. Making statements that amount to “kinky people lose their jobs because they talk about sex at work” and then claiming that we’re all overreacting and she didn’t really mean that and we should know better… Smells like retcon to me.

    If you don’t mean it then why the hell do you say it.
    But, no. We should know better than to jump on what she *says* instead of what she might mean. Bull.

  31. D: exactly.

    Ren: yeah, um, I still remember the Biting Beaver “zomg I should’ve aborted my teenaged son since he won’t stop wanking to porn” kerfuffle, f’r instance…

  32. And, bluntly, I’ve been a fuck of a lot more circumspect in public wrt my sex life than ND has about her bloviations.

    It’s so fucking chickenshit, that move, I swear. Throw out all kinds of invasive, posturing bullshit demanding other people pay attention, engage with her, take on yet more tired hateful ignorant shit about themselves and their lives under the guise of lofty discourse (it’s NOT academic for us, you toff, even if you did have the wit of a sparrow). Then when people finally call her out, backpedal, and use the ancient trustworthy whinge of all assholes called on their hateful trolltastic bigotry and assorted crap everywhere:

    “What? It’s JUST MY OPINION, lol.”

  33. Admittedly, I’ve been following this whole blog war at one step removed from the action. I could see at the start that if I got myself involved, it would be bad for my mental health (I mean that literally, and seriously).

    However, I have seen most of the quoted comments of ND in context at some point or another, as well as following the commentaries on Ren’s, Trinity’s and suchlike places.

    So I am going to give my conclusion: ND, no, I agree, you’re not acting or sounding like a homophobe. You’re right about that.

    Instead, the narrative that I have witnessed being played out is horribly familiar as the way in which an abusive spouse operates to inflict emotional abuse on a partner, with exceptionally cruel words at times, coupled with, “oh, but I never meant to hurt you”, followed by the most reasonable, rational-sounding explanation, coupled with a “poor dear, you’re just not clever enough to understand are you?” (which of course sometimes appears as, “You’re just a stupid bitch aren’t you? Why can’t you understand ANYTHING I SAY to you!?”) And of course, all the friends (read, ND’s regulars) see only the charming, nice side, and ignore a few little tics here and there that might otherwise force them to question their high opinion of the abuser.

    I have to make my excuses here, and say that I lack the energy and willpower to go through the blog war and also find a domestic violence advice website, and demonstrate this in practical terms by showing how ND’s behaviour matches the outline. I know that I could do it if I had the energy (and I would love it if someone else took on that task). But like I said, I have largely stayed out of this fight based on mental health concerns.

    Oh, and ND, riddle me this: if (as you say) “[BDSM is] a pronounced and exaggerated display of the sexual hierarchy that the Natural Order of Things rests upon.” then why are so many of the bastions of the natural order so forcefully opposed to BDSM?

    That’s it, I’m done with this fight. Again.

  34. well, for me it matches the behavior/standard lines of Homophobes I Have Known, give or take a few details. but your take works too, sure. It boils down to the same thing: gaslighting, (among other techniques), disingenuous and toxic as all fuck.

  35. I mean, it’s very convenient to believe in a rigid framework wherein only people of a certain sex, and/or people who engage in certain sexual behaviors, are manifesting power in unhealthy ways, or indeed are even capable of doing do, if one doesn’t happen to belong to either of those categories. The idea that there are tried and true techniques for maintaining–privilege in one language, power or a one-up position in another, I’m sure there are others, and it is in fact possible for someone situated where ND is to be employing those methods wrt kinky people–I’m sure it’s well out of her philosophy. But then, what else would you expect?

  36. “the way in which an abusive spouse operates to inflict emotional abuse on a partner, with exceptionally cruel words at times, coupled with, “oh, but I never meant to hurt you”, followed by the most reasonable, rational-sounding explanation, coupled with a “poor dear, you’re just not clever enough to understand are you?” (which of course sometimes appears as, “You’re just a stupid bitch aren’t you? Why can’t you understand ANYTHING I SAY to you!?”) And of course, all the friends (read, ND’s regulars) see only the charming, nice side, and ignore a few little tics here and there that might otherwise force them to question their high opinion”

    This. Yes.

    Say a nasty as fuck thing, then when people call you out, “they’re emotionally fragile if they thought I MEANT WHAT I SAID!”

  37. “What gets me, really, is this sense that they’re constructing this elaborate fantasy about my life and self and that of people who are vaguely like me to enjoy in their personal spaces.

    I can’t figure out how this is any different than, you know, the junior high school boys who made up elaborate fantasies of my life and self to wank off to. It doesn’t have any more respect for my autonomy or what’s actually real to me; it’s this depersonalising, dehumanising, fetishisation of some trait of mine for someone else’s gratification.”

    Exactly, and the minute you inform these folkses that they might want to get their facts a bit more straight, they come back with “but somebody somewhere blogged about Internal Enslavement someplace so you’re LYING.”

  38. Dear Ninny Deuce,

    Your rape trauma, or anyone else’s, does not grant the moral authority to pass judgment on my private, informed, consenting sexual practices with other informed, consenting adults. Kindly fuck off and die now, you condescending, slagg-ass, ignorant shrew.

    And Natalia, I ❤ you.

    ~ Keori

  39. Keori:

    As much of a bigoted git as I think ND is being, I think it’s totally off limits to speculate on whether she’s been raped or not and then get snarly based on that.

    Wow.

  40. Keori… I’ll admit I approved your comment without really reading. I generally employ laissez faire moderation here, so I would have probably approved it anyway, but I’m embarrassed I didn’t even see what was being talked about, until getting a pingback from ND.

    I strongly disagree with ND over everything that’s happened here – but this is taking it way, way too far.

  41. “Dear Ninny Deuce,…”

    And the moral high ground has been given back to ND, who seems to have wandered off it a little while back.

  42. Ooh, puerile name twisting and armchair psychologising someone’s motivations without evidence. What a charmer you are, Keori.

    Free clue: in a discussion where kinky people are complaining that opponents are making shit up and claiming that’s what’s going on in their lives, waltzing in and making shit up about someone? About the stupidest, rudest, most obnoxious, and counterproductive thing you could do. Thanks. However will we be able to repay you?

    Get the fuck off my side. We’re already over quota on assholes, alas.

  43. Fucking ownedddddddddddddddddd.

    This made my fucking day.
    I love your liberal use of fail and lolcats.
    Adding to my blogroll kthnx 😀

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